What You Need to Know About Recruiters and Job Searches
Jordan Chase has seen hiring from inside a company, as well as from a recruiter’s perspective. Jordan spent over a decade at Medtronic, in human resources and talent acquisition. He’s spent the last decade as an outside search consultant with his group, Chase Medsearch. They focus primarily on customer facing positions in sales & marketing with a specialty in the neuromodulation space. In this episode Jordan shares what you need to know about recruiters, the difference between contingency and retained search, the challenges of an inside recruiter, how inside and outside recruiting differ, why your online presence is important, how a company triages candidates, what you should and shouldn’t do when you hear about a job you are interested in, and how to choose a recruiter to work with.
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Episode Transcript
This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service and is minimally edited. Please forgive the mistakes contained within it.
Patrick Kothe 00:31
Welcome. In our careers, there will be many times where we'll be changing jobs. There's most likely also be times when we'll be hiring someone. Recruiters both inside your company and out are critical to that process. Yet, their role and how they can help or hurt you is not always understood. Our guest today is Jordan Chase, who's seen hiring from inside a company as well as from a recruiters perspective. Jordan spent over a decade at Medtronic in human resources and talent acquisition. He spent the last decade as an outside search consultant with his group Chase MedSearch. At Chase. They focus primarily on customer facing positions in sales and marketing. And they have a specialty in the neuromodulation space. And Jordan is going to explain a little bit about why that is in a little bit. I first came across Jordan through his podcast, the chase med search podcast. And I have to say it's really is a great podcast, because he and his guests discuss a variety of topics that are important to medical sales, and also important to obtaining top talent. So I highly recommend you check it out. Today we discuss what you need to know about recruiters the difference between contingency and retained search, the challenges that an inside recruiter has, how inside and outside recruiting differ, why your online presence is important. And please had asked you to listen to this one. how a company triage as candidates and what you should and shouldn't do when you hear about a job you're interested in. And finally, how to choose a recruiter to work with. Here's our conversation. Jordan, so you spent the first part of your career in HR and talent acquisition at Medtronic. And now Now you've focused on medical search and Talent Search. So what drew you to this, this type of business,
Jordan Chase 02:48
I got any human resources because there was someone that I knew personally that was in HR that inspired me, I was working at a hotel, going to college and I was a Bellman login, you know, bags and shining shoes and all that stuff, parking cars. And I just really connected with the HR manager of the hotel at the time is a great guy. He got to know all the insider information which was interesting to me. And it just drew me toward human resources and working with people and accomplishing business goals. And so I decided to major in that as a student and ended up getting a master's in that from University Minnesota. I interned with Medtronic I think three times and finally they said you can't intern with us again, unless you promise you're going to come here after you graduate. I said, Okay, good. That sounds like a good deal. So I was at Medtronic really 1998 through about half of 2012. And really enjoyed it. The corporate recruiting role happened the back half of my career there. The first part of my career was in human resources. That was what my master's degree was. And so I was in all into performance management, and organizational restructuring, and compensation and benefits and all sorts of things. And it always lightly touched on talent acquisition or recruiting. And I always enjoyed it, but it was never the main part of what I did. I had a whole bunch of other things that I was doing. And I remember I was on, you know, a management track at Medtronic, and I think I was being evaluated for, you know, more positions of responsibility and perhaps, you know, managing people and I went down to a organization called PDI, which is a industrial organizational psychology firm. They put at one point, they put all their people that they were considering for bigger roles through that. The psychologist told me, you know, it's a really interesting report we've got right here, Jordan. One, you're an extremely black and white thinker. It's good, bad, it's in our it's up, down. It's right wrong. You are extraordinarily strong on that. And you also had at that time, she told me the highest inbox score or multitasking score of anyone in that office that they'd had in there at that point ever, including CEOs. So she goes, I've got a mixed message for you. She goes, I think, you know it, it's got nothing to do with your intelligence. She said, it's just there's so much gray in human resources and things that are half done or unfinished, because it can't be and there's no clear closure to it, that you're going to be frustrated, the higher you go in the organization, doing that type of work. But she said, Have you ever thought about being a recruiter or going into recruiting, and I had not really considered that up to that point, she said, because that would, I think be very, very satisfying work to you, because there's a clear end point to it. And I thought I walked out of that day, my head was kind of spinning, because it was different than I thought I would be back than I thought I would get. But ultimately, that's what led me to pursue recruiting at Medtronic, which I did for the back half of my career, and really enjoyed it. I was in a sector of Medtronic called the neuromodulation sector, which was very high growth and applying, you know, technology, basically, almost leveraging pacemaker technology and to other parts of the body and, and reconnecting last nerve connections between the brain and that area of the body. And it was really high growth. And we had the highest hiring rate of any division of Medtronic, which is saying something during the years that I was in talent acquisition with them and leading the charge in the neuromodulation sector, recruiting for, I think, five different individual businesses with under that umbrella. And I had a great
Patrick Kothe 06:36
time where you're recruiting for sales, marketing, manufacturing quality, what was a
Jordan Chase 06:42
functions all day long, sales all day long, and, and other positions that touched on the customer, we got involved in healthcare economics, at the time was called reimbursement, marketing positions, professional education, sales, training, anything under the, you know, the auspices of commercial activity, if you will, I just connected better with that group of people have a lot of friends that were engineers and regulatory clinical quality. But I just enjoyed the whole interaction with salespeople I always have I love it, they're so motivated, they're so inspiring to me, I just, it's just, it's like not even work. I just love working with them. That's what I did. But my wife was from San Antonio, and all roads, eventually, we're gonna leave back here. So made the move to San Antonio and left Medtronic and went to a wound care company that had just been acquired by a venture capital firm call that the company was called kci. At the time, they were purchased by a group called apex. And there were a lot of organizational changes that happened, I didn't know what it meant to be purchased by a venture capital firm. It happened two weeks before I started, but I found out that it means a lot of organizational change. And in this particular instance, I met many, many, many layoffs. And eventually, I think 99% of my department was cut, except for me, I was hanging on and they said, your job is as secure as it can be, quote, unquote, you have 250 open jobs, and you're the only recruiter. It's not sustainable. You know, they allowed me to hire some folks into that team to help during the whole, organizational restructure, I began to think about what else I could do, you know, because it just didn't seem like the particular job I was in had a bright future, or is very stable. So my wife and I, you know, were people of faith, we prayed about it. And then just every single door open to start in this business, old friends of mine, were spreading out leaving Medtronic, they were going to new companies, they wanted to work with a recruiter that they liked and trusted, that had done good work for them in the past, and just a lot of doors. I mean, that's a whole nother podcast of how I started this business, but we ended up starting it, and we've been at it nine years now. And there are significant differences between being an internal recruiter and being a search agency. Most people do it the opposite way that I did. Most people are work for a search agency, and then they work themselves into a corporate position. I did the opposite, because I'm left handed and I have to do everything differently than everybody else, I guess. But, you know, when we can talk about those differences if you want because I think I let's
Patrick Kothe 09:27
let's do that let's let's talk about what is what is it? Why is it different? Being on both sides.
Jordan Chase 09:34
You know, I think in my position, I'm a contingency search agency, you know, or I run one. And so that's 100% Commission. There is no base salary, there's no benefits. There is no security blanket. There's you and what you're able to accomplish in corporate America, you have all the other all those other things I mentioned that I don't have, you know, yet Pay salary, usually have some end of the year bonus, maybe even a quarterly bonus. You have resources, systems, technology, you have a team of people, the jobs are similar nature. But my motivation when I get up in the morning, this is what I do, you know, there are going to be no meetings on my agenda. Almost never, there's not going to be anything except the objective. And the mission is to fill this job. And it has to be that way. And that's not to knock corporate recruiters because corporate recruiters are faced with a whole nother set of challenges. When I worked, even at a tronic, there were many times when the amount of requisitions that were open that I was tasked with trying to build were into the 80 100 range, you're just paddling around, don't resumes, the people you can you don't have time to talk to people on the phone, you don't have time to do deep intensive search work, you can't, you can't do that work, you have to just do your best to stay afloat. And I think that's the position of many, many corporate recruiters today is that they're far more open positions than a person can do. In my business, I can be selective and take, pick and choose what work I do. So that I know that I'll be effective.
Patrick Kothe 11:14
Let's go into inside a company right now. So you've got as you said, there's there's a lot of different open positions. How do you manage the deal flow coming in? How do you manage all of the all of those positions? Because I'm sure that every position has a hiring manager who wants you to be their number one? priority? So how do you manage that,
Jordan Chase 11:43
you know, this is gonna sound really odd. But the best training I ever got for this was working in hospitality and working with the public, and especially working as a short order cook at restaurants and working as a waiter. Because you learn to multitask and you learn this innate sense of timing, like how long can this go before I have to pay some attention to it, and that I got to switch, and then I got a switch, and you switch back and forth, and back and forth, back and forth. You know, there are I think, organizationally, there's a world of difference between if you're an inside a corporation between a VP that says I need this, and I need it soon. And a first line manager that says, hey, I need this, and I need it soon. You know, sometimes you have to prioritize along those lines. And I, I can tell you, if you're a good recruiter, you won't keep your job, you're going to do that, I have had some classes in time management, and sometimes something that's easier to knock down right away, you know, if you can do something in five minutes you do it, that's just, that's just how you do it, you just have to, you know, hey, I can get this off my desk in five minutes, I'm gonna do it right away. And and there are searches that take much longer and you know, they're going to take longer, because that job is in super high demand. And these people are making a lot of money, they have people approaching them all the time. And what's going to stand out about your message, you have to craft that really, really well. You look at a job and say, Okay, this is a director of sales for this business, which people know is not doing well. And for instance, they know and people are leaving, there's a certain amount of turnover associated with this position. And it's higher level, and then the hiring manager is super picky about who they get into this role. Meaning they have to have these exact qualifications and they won't budge on it, this is going to be a longer search. So you have to help educate that hiring manager and say, Okay, so in you know, we've pared down the universe, which is good, we're not going to look at all these people. But then you're you've narrowed the field down to a point that if we can't get these particular people interested in the job, we're going to have to play a little bit of a waiting game, for something to change in the market so that the talent that you want is going to become available. Otherwise, we got to refine your criteria a little bit and you're going to have to give on some things and you're going to have to open up maybe they don't have to have electrophysiology experience only maybe they can have interventional cardiology and be familiar with the lab and not only have gone up or have some very narrow specification so it's it's it's a matter of timing and judging how long that job is going to take to fill how easy it is to fill. And then there's a whole nother aspect to it of crafting an effective message and effective sales message. I always work like I had are my teammates inside corporate America, tell me We love you. But you're very annoying because you're always on the phone. You're always talking and you talk really loud. You know, why do you talk so loud? I have a headache. I had a manager come to me one time and say why are you on the phone all the time? Why do you take the time to explain the job to people? Why do you take the time? Why don't you just take the resumes that people applied online, just throw them at the managers and not interact with the candidates and I sat because that's not the work I do. I don't like that work. I don't think that's good work. I don't think the manager appreciates it. You know, I know that may be your guidance. But I'm a little headstrong on this. And I think we'll get a more a better outcome. If we do it this way. Understand, I'm not talking to every single person that applied, I'm only talking people that I think are going to fill this job, the rest of people are going to get, you know, an email saying thank you for applying but not a fit.
Patrick Kothe 15:23
So Jordan with the with that many candidates, and that many jobs out there, how do you triage who you're going to talk to going through resumes? Is it automated? How does that happen?
Jordan Chase 15:35
I do very little automation, because I scan, you know, I don't read every resume in depth I scan for things I'm looking for names of companies being one huge, because in sales, at least managers, I think a lot of times they're looking for reassurance that other people have bought on off on this person, and this person is doing a good job. And one of the simplest ways that that is done is what companies that they worked at. It's not always true, it's not always accurate. But there are some companies that have really high standards to get in. And then to stay in and succeed at that company, you know, you know, that person sitting down across from the desk at you is going to be decent, at least they're not going to be a flop, they may not be the right fit. But my gosh, if they've made made it at a company, let's say five years that every year attaches a 20% non negotiable growth metric to their sales results. And they had to pass some really difficult psychological exam to get into, you know, you've got a good person or a decent person on the other end of the line, you know, someone has bought off on that, and that company's reputation precedes itself. Those are there are companies in the industry like that. So you're looking for that. I like to talk to hiring managers and just ask them, Hey, what are the absolute essentials? I've got your job description, I'll read it. But just tell me in your own words, get them talking to you. You know, get them get them verbalizing things that they feel about this job that they need in this job. Why is this important to you? And that will also help you gauge as a recruiter how much time you should spend on are they engaged? Are they not engaged were they told I've had many situations by career where managers were told they had to fill position that they did not want to fill. I'm going to give jobs, the same amount of attention. And the hell have the same amount of emotional investment that I feel like that manager has, and if they are not into it, and they're like yeah, you know, I can feel this next six months, I have no time to, you know, as an internal recruiter with a lot of jobs or an external recruiter, I don't you don't have time for that you can't take on that search assignment.
Patrick Kothe 17:41
During are there are there a few red flags, you'll see as your triage, seeing these resumes in your you're going through, you're looking at, at names of companies, a tenure at the companies, there's some things on the other side that it's a real red flag, hey, this one goes in the no pile immediately.
Jordan Chase 17:57
I hate it that this is a reality. But if they don't have a bachelor's degree for 99% of jobs, they can't get hired. I hate that. I'll be honest, I've been on record, I have a master's degree, I was number one student in my business college, or I graduated from undergrad. And I still don't think for the vast majority of jobs, people should have a requirement bachelor's degree, I don't think I don't think it's necessary. I think it rules out a lot of good people. And many of the best people that I've ever met in business got in and did really well, because they didn't, they had a really strong level of wisdom, and intelligence. And they combine those things. And they didn't have a degree. I remember, holy hell was raised at Medtronic one time because there was a director job open. I knew what they wanted. And I found this woman who was fantastic and did not have a bachelor's degree, but was doing the job. And then they had other people internally, they're going to interview that had master's degrees. And I talked to a hiring manager, I said, I got to you what, but this is gonna break every rule in the book. But she's really, really good. And she is working on a bachelor's degree. He said, Okay, I'll talk to her. But you know, you're an HR and you're telling me to do this. I go, yeah, just just I know, I know, hang with me. I'm nervous, too. But let's do it. And he ended up hiring her. And there was a line of people outside his office are really upset about that. That wasn't the vice president today. It's just one of those things. And so long story about why I dislike that degree requirement. I remember talking to an employment attorney who said she agreed to she's like, you just don't need a degree for a lot of jobs. It's an artificial requirement so that the company is protected from not getting sued for people from employees who say they're owed overtime, because this is not an exempt level job. Anyway. So that's one that I look for. You know, it used to be going back 20 years ago that they had, you know, so a lot of people had it in their heads around how long someone had stayed at a job. You know, you could then want a job hopper and I know you don't, you know, people don't want a job hopper today either, but With COVID, and with, you know, stock market ups and downs and with you know, big financial institutions calling a note sort of weekend, and you know, the next day everybody's laid off, a lot of things have happened to kind of break that paradigm a little bit. It's a truism, if you look on the west coast, you're gonna see people that last or stay at jobs, 18 months, on average, I don't know why that is. I mean, it just for whatever is on the west coast, especially in California, you know, people change jobs a lot. And I that may be partly influenced by the way things are in the tech industry, I don't know, the gig economy. But that can be a bit of a red flag is if someone's jumping around, without having good reasons for jumping around any sometimes you got to talk to them pick up the phone and say, Okay, this person's worked here, and they've worked here, and they sold this, and I know, this is a difficult sale to do. And, you know, but in sales in particular, they call them porpoises, or at least a couple managers that were they surface and they hit their they exceed their number, you know, and then I dropped out, way down, because there's some things they did hit that number that weren't great, and then they're back up again, because, you know, and they're just, they're porpoises. And, and, you know, you kind of try to look for that too, to say, okay, what's real? You got to peel that onion back a little bit. Other things on resumes that are non starters, a lot of time are spelling errors. I mean, just hit spellcheck. You're not being hired to be an English teacher, but you got to know how to spell the word specialist. You know, it, it's an easy mistake to make, and I'm guilty of it myself, you know, but you're putting yourself out there professionally. You know, I think a lot of people in the internet age we're in go on LinkedIn immediately when they get a resume, and they have a look at that person. I mean, on LinkedIn, there are a wide variety and array of photos that people choose to put out to represent themselves. And, you know, I have seen everything that you could imagine on the scale of from least professional to, you know, that's a good picture. I don't rule people out on pictures. But I know that the managers, many, many hiring managers, and they'll Google the person to just to see what else is out there. I tell people I tell I think everyone should lock down their social media. I think they should all have their Facebook garden, I think you shouldn't be able to go in their Instagram and look at it. I don't think you should be able to look at Twitter, their Twitter accounts, I don't I think that's like opening your front door and letting people eight strangers walk through your house. Why would you do that? That's me, but I feel like it hurts more people than they realize professionally, that they have not locked down their social media accounts. And they'll never know that's the sad thing. Because who's gonna tell him we live in a highly litigious society? Don't do that. I mean, it can be innocuous, I mean, many sales reps look, we're they're all outgoing, right? They let the world in on who they are. They're not doing anything crazy, but come political season, you're always gonna see stuff, anything controversial. There are plenty of topics in this world today that are stifling people's job opportunities. And LinkedIn has turned into Facebook in a way that I never ever imagined it would have when LinkedIn started. I have seen things during political season that are absolutely atrocious that people have said, and some of them have been people I know and I just sit there, you know, my thing is, is a recruiter, I don't judge. But I don't think people realize they're representing themselves to the professional community, maybe they don't care. Maybe they're just like, but realize that's a choice. They're you're making as a as a person, you know,
Patrick Kothe 23:42
everyone has that opportunity to say, Hey, this is me, like me or don't like me? Well, people, some some people are not going to like you and they're controlling, controlling your your paycheck. It's really as interesting to come. It's been
Jordan Chase 23:56
a while. last few years, I'll say that, let's say. Let's say the last, really the last eight years have been eye opening on the social media front, you know. So I think that you didn't ask about what I read that question because he asked about resumes, but I'm talking in terms of big red flags. Social media is a big red flag for a lot of employers.
Patrick Kothe 24:23
And when I say resumes, really, you know what is? Because LinkedIn is a resume, that's your social presence. It is people are, it used to be that you know, you would get resumes in and that's how you would evaluate somebody now, it's so easy just to go and see all the Presidents everywhere and you're going to get a much better picture of who that person is. Because you're not as you're going through the interviewing process and the hiring process. You're trying to understand what that person is all about. What motivates them, why they are doing things, you know, part of it is what they do, but the other part is why they do yes, you I mentioned mentioning earlier, you know about college and things I could tell you, my dad told me years years ago, he says you, Pat, college only tells you where you've been, but doesn't tell you where you're going. And that's what we're trying to do when we're interviewing people is we're trying to understand who they are as a person to all to allow us to make a determination whether they're going to be a good fit for us, and what we need in the job going forward.
Jordan Chase 25:26
It's it's critical, and I deal on the sales end, but I would say in sales, it's so critical, because that person is a walking commercial for your company. They are the face of your company, to the hospital administration, to the doctors, to the people that are the key decision makers, and they say it different ways. But what managers are always trying to get to are the intangibles of who is this person? What is their character? What is their integrity? What will they do on the job, the things that I can't teach them to do the things that I can't coach them to do the internal characteristics and makeup of this person to know that they'll work a full day to know that they'll go the extra mile, to know that they have the emotional intelligence to go to a clinic in Bernie, which is 99.9%. Republican, and then, you know, and talk to doctors and nurses there, and then go into San Antonio into a deep blue district and call on a doctor in a clinic that probably have always voted Democrat, are they going to have the emotional intelligence to deal with all sorts of customers? Are they going to be able to handle high stress situations, there's so much that goes into it. And the thing is about that commercial, it's always running, what during the work day, right? That commercial is always on. And, you know, sales people, that's I've said this before, but frontline sales managers, I think, are the most important jobs in any organization, once you get up and running, you know, aside from the inventor of the company, or the founder of the company, because, you know, their individual decisions matter so much on the future of that organization and their revenue. And one of the most critical things they'll do is hire people. And those people need to be successful for the organization to be successful. You know, that's one of the things I tried to do and help them is this, let's get to the real, this is your resume, this is a resume, I've talked to this person, these are the notes. But after a while of doing this, it's reading people. And I had the best again, the best training ever to read people because I was always hustling from I started full time work at 15 working in hospitality, my father passed away, I was working, you know, I worked all the way through my undergrad in hospitality. And when you're working for tips, you know, based on your service level, and what you're doing for somebody to get them to their room, you know, with their luggage or a park or whatever it is, you are constantly reading that person, you know on that almost be a chameleon. So you get really good at reading people and figuring them out and knowing how far you can go and how far you can go. And when I'm talking to people on the phone, you know, I've done this so long now, you know that you think the conversations are so in depth and they take an hour and a half. They don't. They don't. I know what I know what I'm listening for. I know the points I want to hear, I want to hear how they talk. And I just sit back. Just listen.
Patrick Kothe 28:24
So I grew up in sales to start off carrying a bag and was a sales manager and director of sales. And I've always said I mean that the job is a job. The job of a salesperson is reading people, that is what you're paid to do. It's reading people and then providing the answers to the solution to the problems that they're having. So you're you're constantly reading people. So what as a as a hiring manager or as a recruiter, how can we be better at reading people,
Jordan Chase 28:56
you have to you have to establish trust with the person very quickly. You have to help that person feel safe with you. And I am extremely informal, on the calls with people. When I call them I'm friendly. You know, I'm optimistic and bright, some of that's my personality, but you know, and trying to help them feel like it's safe to open up to me. That's how you get better. You don't get better. I mean, I don't connect Well, with organizations. They're all about intimidation and authority as not, as as not me. I'm not saying those organizations are great. I'm just saying, I've turned down a lot of business from other companies because I'm like, I wouldn't enjoy working with that. I just wouldn't, you know, it's just not me. I can't be everything to everybody. This is who I am as a recruiter. And I think knowing that's really important too. The interviewer has to know themselves. And then they have to like, I think remove the layers of stuffy nose removed, just get really down to earth. So this person opens up and starts talking and then they need to listen to that person and then prompt them along. Just bring up along, you know, if you know your job really, really well, and you know the kinds of information that you need, you know, you can isolate those down to a few factors, and then get that person talk. And they'll tell you more than you needed to know, I think that is so important in interviewing, because interviewing is such an artificial, staged situation. And people are everybody's trying to put their best foot forward. And I always tell managers, and every interviewers, I say, they're not going to get better after you hire them, this is the best they're going to ever look. So be okay with that, you know, because once you hire them, then things come out, because nobody's perfect, you know, but they're not going to get, they're not going to get better so so you got to get a good sense for who they are now. And that I really think is, is establishing trust very quickly, sitting down, and there's some people that are just it goes back to who the person is, I think, and getting comfortable with who you are, and then knowing your job inside now really, really knowing what you need, and then being able to just let that person you know, ask a few questions that back. Okay, you know, and nod your head be friendly. Oh, my gosh, I, I think people that act intimidating during interviews and try to almost that bullying, but it's this sort of this haughtiness, they don't get good interviews, because they don't get good information. Maybe they're trying to see what that person does under pressure. So that might be, you know, and if it's a super high pressure environment, great, you know, I mean, okay, but 99% of the light of their work, life won't be live that way. There'll be 1% when it's, yeah, but but if it's that way, all the time, eventually, you're gonna exhaust the person emotionally, they're gonna move on. Anyway. So I think that's really the way I have approached it. And I think that's, I think that's been why, you know, we've had some of the success that we've had. You know, it's,
Patrick Kothe 31:50
it's really interesting that you that you say this, Jordan, because I've felt the same way. I mean, the people who interview really well, in the formal part of the part of the interview, I'm always wary of, because they're probably interviewing too much. So you really have to take that into account in my job. Typically, the first interview, it's going to be Hey, you know, let's go through the work history, let's verify a couple of things. But the secondary review to me is always these guys pass past the, the first part of it now I want to get to know this person, and then the only way to get to know them is to drop the barriers. And you're just going to try and say I want to see this person, I don't want to see this interviewee I want to see this person. So how can I get there as quickly as possible. And the way to do it is to, as you said, establish a trust, bring it down, you know, make them feel real, really, really comfortable. Because when they're really really comfortable, they're going to say things that they probably didn't plan on saying, but it's the real person. And you're, you're gonna, you're gonna get to the heart of what you're trying to find out much quicker.
Jordan Chase 32:54
I'll tell you a test that some people this now, let's say 20 years ago, there were managers that use this kind of test. One was the dinner test, and that dinner test was dinner with the managers Why? Now this sounds antiquated. I know, but they would take
Patrick Kothe 33:07
Let me tell you it doesn't it doesn't sound antiquated because you just put me into an interview that I did as a salesperson with a with a with a sales manager and her husband, they write me out to dinner and and looking back on that I failed. My wife did a great job. I failed that interview because I was I thought I was supposed to be Mr. Corporate. Yeah, and you weren't looking back at it. back. It's so funny.
Jordan Chase 33:35
They want to get you in an unguarded situation. Some sometimes, you know, and and, and combined with dinner sometimes is drinks, because a good number of managers want to know, can this person handle alcohol appropriately? Do they handle alcohol appropriately? And, you know, I'm not saying those tests are still used, but I'm not saying they're not still used. I know plenty of folks that finish off interviewing with, you know, some of these, these more informal tests, maybe not dinner with their wife, but, you know, they're trying again, it goes to trying to peel back who is the individual, I don't just want a robot. I'm not hiring a robot Plus, I know no one really is a robot I really want to get at what makes this person tick. Why are they motivated, you know, where they come from. So many sales people when you get into it are have come from some some difficult times difficult situations are stories of resilience. You know, I know people whose fathers passed away at a very young age and they had to make it out of some really difficult situations, you know, injuries or childhood illness or something like that. Typically, a lot of managers want to hear that they want those stories, because it's intrinsically going to this person understands what life is about. They have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They have had to overcome some things, which means that They don't take things for granted, when they're on the job, they're going to work. You know, because, you know, so many sales managers income, and their own success is tied up in how well their team does gotta get somebody out there you can trust because you're not if you're the manager of, you know, let's say Dallas, but you got people in Oklahoma working for you, you're not with them every single day, you got to trust that their discretionary choices and activities are moving that number forward.
Patrick Kothe 35:25
A good part of sales is is is getting out in front of the customer, it is showing up, it's getting, it's getting out of your house and getting into the hospital, that is a good part of sales success. And people, you know, the only way to gauge that is to know what really motivates somebody and what's in their past, because the past is always a great predictor of what's gonna happen in the future. Yep, yep. Absolutely. Jordan, let's, let's talk a little bit about the search side of things. So your, your, your business, you're, you're a contingency, recruiter. And when you're a retained search firm, you're working directly for the company. Right? And you're you're you're paid regardless of whether it's filled or not. contingency? Yo, as you said, it's it's a straight commission job. Right. So who do you work for? Are you working for the company? Are you working for the candidates?
Jordan Chase 36:24
That's a great question. And I get that asset all the time. And it is, it is a fantastic question. You all like my answer, but it's both, you know, I'm because I don't do puzzles. For instance, my wife loves puzzles, my daughter loves puzzles, I don't do puzzles, because I do I work on puzzles all day long. Because it's about fit. It's so much about fit, that that's how I think all the time, you know, I did strengthsfinder once. And connectedness was my number one, strength, you know, I see the whole world is interrelated in people is interconnected. And that's why I love recruiting. And it's always about fit. And so my customer is the company, you know, if I make a placement, then I get a placement fee, if I don't make a placement, I get nothing. So obviously, my objective is to fulfill my customers man. At the same time, you know, I'm dealing with, with candidates, and I have, I also take that as a really big responsibility. Like, that's someone's livelihood, that's how they support themselves. That's how they support their family, that's how they do things in life, I don't want to put someone in a bad situation where they can't succeed, I don't want to put them even if it's a great job, but I know they don't have what's going to be what it's going to take to do that job successfully, I don't want to put them in that situation. They don't, you know, and I don't take work with companies that just have bad situations, period, you know, like, I'm not going to work with a company to fill a job that I don't feel good about. And I can't because I can't sleep at night, you know, I've taken someone made an image of God and put them in a place that boy, that a that's not going to be a good place for them. I don't want to be I don't want to be involved with that. I don't want to touch it. I don't I don't want to deal with it. So I'm working on both people's behalf simultaneously. And for me, I'm doing everyone the best service, if I'm if I'm constantly evaluating fit, is this gonna fit? Is this person going to come in here, and it's going to be just, they're going to do a great job for the manager and the organization. So and for candidates, you know, you there's a certain amount of advocacy you have to do for people, because you'll find people that you think really fit and the manager and see fit. No, I know, Jordan, I don't think so. I don't think it's here. But because I've seen so many iterations of the hiring process over the years, I tried to, you know, a potential customer asked me once, hey, how many of these hiring decisions they'd be involved in 1000s at this point, having the highest hiring rate for, you know, 13 years at Medtronic of any division, and then nine years went out of business, and we filled, you know, a whole bunch of jobs doing this. I mean, 1000s of conversations, you know, maybe, I don't know how many hiring decisions. So you've seen this, you've seen this movie before. From that standpoint. You know, you really, they you could say it's gut, but you've just seen things work out and you've seen things not worked out, and you build all up all this sort of knowledge base, and then you're like, Okay, I can I think this is really going to make a difference in person's life. I was talking to a person today and making 75 grand a year, I've got $130,000 I plan job or top reps can do 250 Plus, that person gets that job to change their whole life. You know, and we've had, you know, my brother is in his business, he works for me. We've had emails to that effect testament text messages and calls like you literally changed my family's life. I didn't I say we don't do that work. You know, you got That job I connected you. I mean, I'm glad to play a small part in your success. But you know, I'm the guy, I always want to take a picture of me, there's a stage with a curtain, and I'm the guy off to the side, sort of, you know, pointing at the stage. You know, it's their show it, they're the stars of the show, not me, I'm just a stagehand. But I enjoy it. You know, and I really, I love it when people, you know, tell me about their successes, how they've been doing, we keep up with our placements, we ask them how they're doing, you know, enjoying it, you know, and just want to always make sure and validate that it's a good fit that we've, we've we've made. So that's a long winded answer, but it's really both, you know, because it ultimately, it serves the customer best if that was if we were looking out for the candidate to.
Patrick Kothe 40:51
The other thing is you're establishing partnerships with customers, too, because if you, if you deliver something that isn't right, and that person is gone in a short period of time, that's a reflection on you, they're going to be they're going to be less apt to come back to you for the next job.
Jordan Chase 41:09
No doubt. They will, they will know.
Patrick Kothe 41:13
So journey. I'm also kind of curious about you mentioned that sometimes you have to be an advocate for for your people, and really make sure that people understand who this candidate is. But sometimes throughout the process, I'm sure there are candidates that are oversharing information, are you all of a sudden, you're getting a different picture, you know, this person may be down through, you know, three interviews in and you discover something about that candidate. And now all of a sudden, it doesn't look as promising that that candidate doesn't look as promising to you, right? As, as it may be looking to the hiring person. Yeah. How do you handle a situation like
Jordan Chase 41:52
that? Yeah, that's really tough. Normally, that will occur when the candidate starts to give you signals, like they're not into this, or they ghost you for a while, you know, they've been, you know, always, always watch candidates for patterns. Always, I always watch candidate patterns, if they're responsive. And they're right Johnny on the spot, and they are researching the opportunity. And they're, you know, getting back to me, you know, when I text them, and or call them, okay, that's a pattern. And now they're breaking pattern. You know, they're not there, they're less responsive, they're not, they're gone, it takes two days to get back to me when it was just a text message, you know, the breaking pattern that worries me, that starts a spidey sense. We talked about spidey sense a lot, my some of my recruiter friends and I, and spidey sense starts go, I'd be like, okay, what's really going on, and then you have to kind of do one of those interventions with them and say, what, what is happening here, something's happening. And sometimes it's nothing, sometimes life happens, people get COVID, you know, whatever, you know, I mean, and sometimes it's something else, like they're about to be promoted, and they know it, you know, you got away it. But I tried to give when you when you're starting to see that this is, you know, not shaping up toward a positive outcome, you got to let you gotta let your client know, hey, this, this is, this may not be going the right way, we need to, you know, you need to talk to some more people that I've seen you, there are other things that come up DUIs and, you know, arrests, and, you know, you Google somebody's name, and then you find it sad, you have the professional photo, and then you have the one at the station, you know, and they don't look the same, you know, and it's like, talk to me, what happened here, you know, is this on your record, because of this is on your records, you come up a background check, and you're employed now. So why would you, you're gonna quit your job, you're gonna go here, and then they're gonna run background check on you, and you're gonna get fired, and you're gonna get not hired, and you already left your job. So we got to figure this out, I try to be helpful, I want to help people, you know, and I really want the best for them. And sometimes that's just having that conversation with them saying, hey, let me help you realize some things. And I don't think all of that is is the clients business, you know about deep personal employment, I none of that is really it's just, you know, the person's out of the process.
Patrick Kothe 44:09
So Jordan, when you're in sales, and you've got a number of different customers out there and you call on those customers and sometimes they answer the pick up the phone, sometimes they don't sometimes they want to talk to you sometimes you don't, you just you have to persevere and you have to keep after after them. Are you in the same position? So what if what I'm what I'm interested in is, you've got an open position and you've got all you know, a slate of different people that you can call up and say, Hey, I got this great position. And would you be interested in talking to me and some people are going to pick up the phone and some people are just going to ghost you or not pick up the phone for several, several years. And then when they need a job, they call you up? So what's your memory like?
Jordan Chase 44:58
I have a I have no memory, I say everybody's in a different place. You know, if they don't respond to my call or text message, it's not the time. Life's too short to keep accounts like that, you know, is my, what I get upset at is when people ghost me. When they're in the interview process, they just disappear. that upsets me. It upsets me when they take counteroffers from their current job when we talked about that, and we knew that they were that was a high likelihood, and they swore up and down, that they wouldn't take the counteroffer and then they get it. And they do and I get mad about that, because I know it's bad for them. I know that research shows 99% of people are not in the job A year later, after they take a counteroffer where someone's just flat out lied to me, that upsets me, but I still I try to walk in forgiveness, you know, I really do I remember, but I also try to walk wisely and say, okay, that's what that person did the last time there are people on my do not use list, I will never call them. I just, they're not that's not a long list. But there are a handful of individuals that they will never get a call from me again. And I'll never respond to any anything they send me the line is that on that one, but that's not a long list. People not responding to me, I don't get mad about, you know, I get shocked sometimes if it's a friend of mine, you know, but normally I would figure they got something going on. You know, there's recruiters at badger people, just bathroom and bedroom. And you know, I don't, I'm gonna go find somebody else, you know, someone that wants this? You know, I'm not gonna badger anybody to death. I'll be precise, I say pleasantly persistent. And then when they finally just, you know, you know, when when it's not not gonna go? It's not good time.
Patrick Kothe 46:41
Turn, how do you manage the business? I mean, what what type of software are you using? How do you how do you manage the flow of the jobs coming in? How do you how do you surfaces jobs? And then how do you surface to candidates?
Jordan Chase 46:53
Yeah, we use Salesforce. That's my software of choice. And then the rest of this stuff is proprietary, I can't tell you, sorry, yeah. I'll say this, I'll say this, you know, I've been around a long time, I have concentrated and camped out in some very specific sectors neuromodulation being one of them. And it's at this point, you know, I think I have about 10,000 numbers in my phone, you know, a lot of what I'm calling and people I'm calling I have known for years, and years and years, and we've worked through a lot of stuff together. Professionally, because I used to be maybe in some cases, or HR manager, you know, once you build a big robust network, as a recruiter, a lot of it is you're married to your phone, you're just not going to get away from it, you know, you're always glad to meet new people. And I do meet a lot of new people all the time. A lot of those people are people that my old network has introduced me to sometimes they're their kids, I'm getting to that age where sometimes I'm recruiting people's kids. You know, there are people that I've placed in different situations, four or five times now in their career, you know, so, you know, you have a robust network and database, I have a database of people that I, that I have.
Patrick Kothe 48:10
So Jordan, when a candidate finds out about a job, or they hear about hear about an opening that's out there, but they don't know, kind of what how it's structured, because, as you know, you know, sometimes the internal person at the company and HR is the one that's doing the search, sometimes it's a contingency search firm, and sometimes it's it's a retained search. And so how does a candidate going and navigate that to assure that you know, they're putting their best foot forward and better have the best probability of success successfully attaining that position?
Jordan Chase 48:50
Absolutely. So I'm going to tell them, I would say one thing that they should not do ever is apply online at a company directly. That's my position, and it may sound self serving. But I think, you know, if you hear my explanation will bear itself out. In reality, most internal recruiters are tasked with far too many requisitions to work effectively. I have seen and known internal recruiters that had over 100 positions open I myself at one point had 250, open requisitions You know, when you're buried that deeply, you can't even go through every single requisition, you have an eight hour day, there are too many resumes to process and filter. So what tends to happen is someone will apply online and then they will never hear anything from the company at all until the requisitions close and they're sent some form email or what have you. Because the company feels like they have to do that. But in the meantime, because the jobs not getting filled, it's sitting around and there's a sense of urgency to filling the job, then they'll contact a recruiter. So the recruiter a lot of times these days has access to that database, the internal company database just to be able to submit candidates and then they're told if that candidates already in there If they can't attend their goats, what they do 99% of the time, they don't present, they're not going to present it because they can't get paid. There's no monetary incentive to make a company aware of a candidate even a good one. If there's no possibility of a payday recruiters just don't, we're not in it. for charity, it's not a charity that we run. So it's always a mistake to apply online directly to a company in my opinion. I mean, there are few miracle times what works out well. And that's great, but almost 100% of time, it works out terribly. If you can find out or do your best guess work on what that company is that has a job that's open, and then go on LinkedIn, and network aggressively with people already working. If you and you should, as a candidate, always have a relationship with at least one recruiter that you trust that works, sections of the medical device industry that you're interested in, or that you're already working in. I have, you know, that sort of carved out that niche where I'm in neuromodulation people know, I'm one of, I think two other recruiters that are in neuromodulation. This is what we do a lot of all day, every day. You should get to know recruiters like that that's best, you know, specialize in the niches that you're in, because we have access, we have access to hiring managers, we're incented the right way. So I think it's a two prong strategy, but not a three prong. I think applying online is always a mistake. And there's lots of reasons for that. I mean, there are companies that have where someone is applied online, years ago, I'm talking, I just ran into this yesterday, a decade ago, they applied online with a big company. And then a manager contacted me and asked me, could I find somebody for him? I said, Sure. So I found this person talked to him, sure enough, they're in their database from a decade ago. And the company's not going to allow recruiter to get credit for that. So you know, it just and who gets hurt in that exchange that the candidate really does, right? Primarily, the company will eventually fill that role, but candidates going to lose out on that opportunity. You know, it's sad,
Patrick Kothe 52:09
that's amazing that it's a decade old, and it still is holding up. So there's no expiration on a resume, once it's in Uri not with
Jordan Chase 52:16
that company, there is a you know, so you know, you look at that, and you say, yeah, you may lose out on an opportunity if you're a candidate today, but for the future, in the long term, you're so much better not being anybody's resume database for a big company. I'd say network aggressively do your best guess work, who works there, and then also have carved out some relationships with recruiters that specialize in areas you are in or want to be in? That would be my, my suggestion is so
Patrick Kothe 52:45
when your net net working aggressively? Are you looking for the hiring manager and reaching out directly to the hiring manager?
Jordan Chase 52:51
Potentially, you know, but you got to start somewhere. I mean, I think in terms of concentric circles, identify someone who works there that's in your geography that's doing the job that you want to do. See, you know, try to contact them, get LinkedIn with them, whatever, and then build from there, you know, they may say, Hey, you know, yeah, I'm the rep that's leaving, and you don't want to work there. Trust me, well, you learn something, you know, they may say, yeah, that's my manager. And actually, yeah, we do need somebody, here we go, here's their contact information you ever know, it's a process of self discovery. You know, a lot of recruiters use LinkedIn as a threat I don't, I think it's just part of the universe in which we live in, we're in an interconnected world. You know, LinkedIn is not a magical pill for filling any job, it is a start, it is a maybe the lowest rung on the ladder to start with, but it's a start, you know, and if you're, if you're a candidate, that is either looking for a new job, I think the best time to start looking for jobs when you don't need one. You know, I think you should always be building your network, I think should always you never know, I mean, we live in a ever changing world. I mean, too many people I know have been caught flat footed over the years, they didn't have a network, they'd never, they were so into their job, they just never made time for the coffee, the lunch, the brunch, whatever, with someone else that they should have. And now they don't know where to start. And they don't know where to begin. And it's they're trying to scale a mountain at the same time in a snowstorm. And it's tough, you know, because then there's this added component of stress, like they know, they need, there's bills that are going to come due and they're not employed. And maybe their severance wasn't what they wanted it to be. It's tough. It's tough to do it now while you don't have to.
Patrick Kothe 54:33
So Jordan, you've had the benefit of being inside a big company and know how it works inside and now you've had the benefit of doing search on the other side. So tell me a little bit about chase med search and how you are doing things a little bit different than everybody else and why it's be advantageous not only for companies but also candidates to work with you.
Jordan Chase 54:57
Yeah, great question. What's the value proposition right? You know, what's my, what's my elevator speech, you know, and I would, it's maybe a little different, I say anyone can do this work, it's just who's going to do it. Um, you know, there's no magic here, there's no special sauce or secret ingredient, it's a lot of hard work. It's a lot of calls, it's, it's a ton of emails, it's a ton of text messages, it's a lot of following up. It's a lot of shepherding processes along and, you know, we have had a lot of success in our firm at startups, and working with either startups that are introducing brand new technology to the market, or big companies that are doing something completely new in certain areas. And they need sales representatives and commercial people that are very good at explaining what we call, you know, sometimes white spaces or white sheets of paper that have no information, just sit down and draw out for the position, how this works, what it does, where it can take them. Not every rep can do that there are great reps out there, we tend to know the reps that are very good and very comfortable with a certain amount of risk, and are willing to bet on themselves without the big company name behind them, and have proven success in those markets. Startup reps are interesting because a lot of their skill sets are translatable, regardless of the specialty, because it's a mentality and a mindset and certain intrinsic characteristics that are different than reps that can work at big companies for years and years and years and retire and get the gold watch and the plaque on the wall. And there's nothing wrong with that, that's a great career, I'm, I'm happy for people to do that. Other reps have gone from GYN to interventional cardiology to spine to neurosurgery and back again, and they make these quantum leaps. And you're like, wow, they can learn anything. And you know, and they have great technical capabilities. But what they also have is this x factor of engagement of the physician, they can get in there and the physician doesn't know them has never met them before. But they are really intriguing in their the way they communicate and how they communicate with impact. And they're passionate about the therapy, and they're really laying themselves out there. It just, it grabs the physicians interest and they also are really smart and strategic. And they can they can kind of parse what doctors are going to be the really fast, influential adopters of that technology. We know those people have been doing this now for a decade, and we've had some great, great company success, if you will, the companies we've worked with have had really good exits, you know, to the tune of, you know, I think I said earlier $100 million, a billion dollars, you name it, they've had a lot of success. And we know those reps. So that's an advantage of working with us, if that's the kind of company that that is trying to do those things. I think that's one thing that sets us apart is our network is good, and we're going to work, you know, we are going to put the time and we're going to put the work and we're going to qualify us to be trained in behavior based interviewing, I used to teach sales managers how to do behavior based interviewing, how to dial in on specific examples, you know, stay out of the woods, I would do this, if I got the job, I would do that. Now. It's really about what have you done, you know, in the job, give me some examples. So I think that's, that's some of the benefit that you get with us, you know, and I've always, you know, and I've trained my team, too, we're responsive, we deliver in a short amount of time, and especially to start up your window is so short to start delivering results for your investors, that you really need to get on it, you need a recruiter that is going to step out for you.
Patrick Kothe 58:42
Well, I wanted to say something that you didn't mention, but you mentioned it earlier in our conversation and that's kind of integrity. When I asked you the question about you know, who do you work for some contingency people, you know, I'm working for the paycheck, I'm working, you know, for the for the person and and whoever's paying me that that's, you know, that's, that's not my customer, my customers on the other side. So it's, it's, it's interesting, your answer was I work for both. Yeah, because you're in it for the long term. And integrity means that, that you're, you're true to the person that you're placing and you're also true to the person that's placing right that that position and and that will will lead to long term relationships and long term success. So I think that that is something else as a candidate when you're working with a recruiter know the integrity of that person, a track record of that person, just as you talked about knowing the track record of the sales rep. People that are looking for positions need to know the track record of the recruiter.
Jordan Chase 59:49
I think that's that's Yeah, that's better than I could have summarized that. I think that's absolutely true. And I think in recruiting is very easy to make fast money and burn your business. All the way down to the ground into ashes, because you're, you're trading off relationships, and you're betraying people along the way. And it's ugly, and it gets ugly. I'm candidates and managers. And I've seen that, and I never want to be that person, I'd rather go do something else and do that if we can, if we can make a fair return for what we do, and do it the right way. And that's something I want to be involved in, I'll feel good about when it's time to finally hang up the, you know, hang up the phone,
1:00:29
if you will, at the end of the day, hang up the salesforce.com. Yeah, hang up, salesforce.com, and all the other things. So Jordan,
Patrick Kothe 1:00:37
thank you so much for spending this time with us really a lot of great, great insights, is there a message that you thought you'd like to deliver to the listeners to kind of wrap things up,
Jordan Chase 1:00:48
you know, the thing is about working with recruiters is it has a reputation of being very difficult. And I think it has a reputation, because there are people that are very intimidating. There are people that don't tell the truth, always there's just a persona or a I'm not sure how to say it. But I hear this almost in some form every single day that working with recruiters is very, very difficult, they don't get back to people, they don't let them know, even if there was one of the final candidates final two, and then that person doesn't get picked, or they don't hear from months, you know, that's a very common thing. And I would say you don't have to work with every recruiter that calls you about a job, you know, try to identify those people that line up with your values and and you're just going to enjoy the interaction with because there's probably going to be a much more successful outcome with that. I don't and I've never done this, you know, people are very reluctant to take a recruiters call, because there's this really high pressure sales tactic that almost immediately engages on the phone. And there are many recruiters that do this, I'm not that kind of person, I would never engage on anything like that, I would just leave, I would just drop it. Because that's going to be the way it starts is the way it's going to be throughout the whole process. So be aware of when you get on the call with somebody, if you decide to take that call or answer that email, have your gut going check, you know, emotionally, am I enjoying this interaction is this really worth my time? Alright, move on, that would be my suggestion, and do your research and try to find at least two or three that you can put up with.
Patrick Kothe 1:02:33
I really enjoyed this conversation with Jordan is passionate about what he does. And he's such a positive person. And he's willing to share his knowledge and help others. A few of my takeaways. First of all, reading people, he discussed that quite a bit. He developed this skill in his time in the service industries. And I think a lot of us were able to do that. But thinking I'd like you to think about is, please remember that when your children are teenagers, working in the service industry can really help them out long term. And also how you present yourself and the first five minutes can determine if you're going to move on to the next level. So this reading people is really, really important, because people are going to be reading you. So if you know that it's going to happen in the first couple of minutes, make sure that you're getting it right. The second thing is online presence. And without beating this one up too much. You know it. But you heard what Jordan said, and there's so many people that haven't paid attention to this, please audit yourself and take action today, whether you're going to put it in private or remove some of those messages that you know shouldn't be on there take action today. The last thing is treat recruiters with respect. Because remember how you treat them is going to reflect on how you treat everyone. And that's a message that they may deliver to the hiring manager. So make sure you're treating them with respect. And the last thing is they may present you with the opportunity of a lifetime or not. Make sure that you've got a solid relationship and that they're going to bring you the best jobs. Thank you for listening. Make sure you get episodes downloaded to your device automatically by liking or subscribing to the mastering medical device, podcast and Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Also, please spread the word and tell a friend or two to listen to the mastering medical device podcast as interviews like today's can help you become a more effective medical device leader. Work hard. Be kind
