Simple Ways You Can Become a Better Persuasive Communicator
Shelly O’Donovan is a recognized expert in persuasive communication who helps people in medical device and pharma communicate more effectively. Shelly is CEO of Authentic Influence Group and also a lecturer at Wharton. The first part of her career was in government, before she made the move to industry, spending 9 years at GSK. In this episode Shelly shares key communication factors, verbal and non-verbal communication, how to stand out in a meeting, how to build trust, the importance of being clear and concise while including proof sources, and why confidence is so important. She also discusses strategies and tips for being more persuasive in one-on-ones, group meetings, when you’re the presenter, and during an online meeting.
Links from this episode:
Mastering Medical Device:
Episode Transcript
This transcript was generated using an automated transcription service and is minimally edited. Please forgive the mistakes contained within it.
Patrick Kothe 00:31
Welcome! Being a great communicator is something we all strive to be. I suspect that like me, you've been working on being a better communicator for years. I also suspect that like me, you need frequent reminders about the things with that we used to know and information and new tools to put in our communication toolbox. Today we're going to examine communication but more specifically, we're going to talk about persuasive communication. Our guest is Shelly O'Donovan. Shelly is a recognized expert in persuasive communication. And she helps people in medical device and pharma companies communicate more effectively. Shelly is CEO of authentic influence group and is also a lecturer at Wharton. The first part of her career was in government before she made the move into industry, where she spent nine years at GSK. Today, we're going to discuss key communication factors, verbal and nonverbal communication, how to stand out in a meeting, how to build trust, the importance of being clear and concise. And also why including proof sources as important. What role confidence plays in persuasiveness. And we also discuss strategies and tips for being more persuasive in different settings in one on one group meetings, when you're when you're the presenter. And also as we're sitting in online meetings. Here's our conversation. Shelly welcome.
Shelly O'Donovan 02:18
Thank you. I'm excited to be here. So
Patrick Kothe 02:21
Shelly, we all want to communicate better. And there's a lot of different ways to do communication, we can focus on listening or public speaking or, or eye contact or a lot of different a lot of different things. But you're focused on persuasive communication, why and what is persuasive communication.
Shelly O'Donovan 02:42
So I am focused on persuasive communication, because persuasive communication is essentially trying to get what you want. And so if you think about it, even from a business perspective, we constantly have to get things right, we have to get that project moved, we have to get budget for something, we have to even with our families, right, we have to get them to eat their carrots, or whatever. So there's constantly persuasive communication and everything that we do. And so that's one of the reasons I'm so focused on it. Because it can really make a big impact in your life, when you can kind of take control of your own persuasive communication, you get things done, you get more projects, you move up that corporate ladder.
Patrick Kothe 03:25
So you've been focused on pharma and medical device companies, is that mean that we're not real persuasive communicators? Or why or why are you focusing in these industries?
Shelly O'Donovan 03:36
Yeah, so I, I guess the reason I focus in those industries is that I started my career in politics, and saw all of this persuasive communication, eventually, you know, moved into pharma and working for companies and trying to help them persuade politicians to do things in order for our patients and for our companies as well. And in all of these places, I just noticed that at a personal level, people within the company were getting stuck, even though they're like brilliant minds, but because they didn't have that persuasive communication piece. And so, obviously, we want the best and brightest minds in those high level spots. But that is the one stumbling block for so many folks that are just so deep in their expertise, but they can't communicate it. So it's, you need to be able to communicate that important information. And so that's why I'm so passionate about that.
Patrick Kothe 04:35
So is that specific, is that a problem specific to medical device and pharma?
Shelly O'Donovan 04:39
It's not actually. So we do see that across different industries. There. Certainly certain industries where you see better persuasive communicators mean even within pharma, you see salespeople that are usually a bit better at the communication piece, and that's because they've really spent a lot of time they've spent a lot of training. They've worked at it. It is skill set that anyone can learn. I think there's a fallacy out there that we just are born great communicators. And that's really not the case.
Patrick Kothe 05:08
It's also, you know, you mentioned salespeople and sales people are, have traditionally been, you know, the type A gregarious type type of people who it's, you know, it's believed, hey, they're natural communicators. But as you said, it's really not the case, we can all we can all get better. If you're a sales person you're selling, you're persuading. But within a company, as you said, we're always selling. And we're always selling and communicating. So we can all be better at this because we're communicating our ideas and trying to persuade people with with our ideas as well. So let's let's kind of go through communication and persuasive communication and look at the different factors that are involved in persuasive communication.
Shelly O'Donovan 05:53
Yeah, so there are a number of factors that are involved in persuasive communication. And so a number of things that you can do. So first, you have to start with a foundation of really building trust with someone, because if I'm trying to communicate to you and persuade you to take on my project, or to give me more budget, if you don't trust me, that is sometimes a dead stop right there. So there are a number of things we can do from a body language perspective, to build trust. But essentially, you know, everything that you do should be really focused on building trust with those folks that you're working with. And so that's a core item. And then from there, other factors are just making sure in your communication, that you're layering in things that can help support your case. So for example, if I was trying to get budget for a project from you, I want to show some kind of evidence that I deserve that right or that project deserves to move forward. So if I can give you some kind of numbers are some kind of data to support that, if I can weave in some kind of story. So certainly, in healthcare, we use patient stories a lot. So if I can use a patient's story to weave in why it's really important that we get budget for that project, and then I have the data on top of it, all of those factors together on this foundation of trust, is going to really grow that forward. And then certainly, you have to have that credibility, to be able to deliver that as well. If you haven't established your credibility within that organization, you're going to have a tough time selling that to.
Patrick Kothe 07:22
I think trust is also an interesting thing, because it's, we've got different levels of relationships, that we've got some, some are brand new relationships, and some are ones that we've had for a long period of time. So that trust is built up, in many instances over a period of time. But if you're brand new to a communication, what are some things that we can do to really build build trust rapidly in that communication?
Shelly O'Donovan 07:49
Yeah, so the first thing I would say that people kind of forget, is to trust the other person, so give them some trust and some respect. And so you're gonna have a hard time trusting me, if I'm, you know, not trusting you at all. From the beginning, you're gonna sense that. So that's number one. The other thing for body language perspective. So having open communication, right, opening your arms, showing that you're kind of accepting of that, that relationship and that communication that can build trust, as well. And then, you know, the quick things, too, that we all know are, you know, try not to lie to people. Don't set people up at work for different things don't, don't feed into the office gossip, all that kind of stuff can really wreck your credibility. And so becomes really important to kind of, you know, stay clean in that way as well.
Patrick Kothe 08:44
Don't be the snake in the grass. That you shake your head yes, at the meeting, and you leave a meeting and you snipe behind the back.
Shelly O'Donovan 08:52
Exactly. I always say talk behind someone's back positively. Because if I, you know, if I leave this conversation today, and I go talk to someone about how much I enjoyed our conversation and all this and that gets back to you that's going to build you up and make you feel feel great. And so that kind of stuff does get back to to focus on the office environments. Look for the positive.
Patrick Kothe 09:15
Yeah, so what you're saying is that trust is really the most important thing that we have to establish a way to be persuasive. Yes, absolutely. It's a bedrock PR thing. Then we got other things like you know, how we communicate verbally and non verbally, we started to talk a little bit about body language. We'll get to that in a couple minutes. And nonverbal stuff, but the nonverbal stuff is is obviously a real important thing as well as the verbal stuff. And And what about concise communication or how you are presenting your material?
Shelly O'Donovan 09:51
Yeah, so that is really important. And we so often I think when we're an expert, we just want to dig in and I kind of want a brain dump until Everything I know, but if you don't package it in a way that's concise and really preserves the message that you're trying to communicate, that can kind of, again, wreck your credibility and not make you as persuasive as you could be. So really thinking about how you package your communication, if you're going into meeting like, what's the message that I want to communicate today, even if you're not facilitating the meeting, but you're just sitting in that meeting? You know, what, what am I trying to communicate today that I'm part of this project that I support the project, and making sure that you come back to that central message constantly?
Patrick Kothe 10:37
Let's talk about confidence for a second because I think that that's a that's another interesting thing as we're communicate, how confident are you in your when you're walking in? Because that will also affect your your persuasiveness?
Shelly O'Donovan 10:50
Yeah, absolutely. And so a lot of that confidence comes down to body language as well. There's a study in which they looked at interviews. And so they had people go in, and they interviewed and they had folks, and they, they videoed them. And they said, Go in and interview, prepare for the interview, like you would, and then they have participants look at video clips. So they had participants look at clips that were 20 seconds, and 20 minutes, and they came back. And they weren't exactly the same. And so that really shows that almost immediately, that first impression is set. And this study has been replicated in different ways. And so we even see musicians, when they walk on stage, if they kind of take the stage confidently, people will say that their music was better that their performance was better. But it's not, it's just the act of taking the stage confidently and showing that you've got it right. And so you can fake that initially. And eventually it becomes this loop and you're training yourself to do it better. And that's when I coach people, that's what I tell them, like, let's start we'll fake it, we'll put some things in place that you're going to do, and get you to that place where you feel confident walking into that meeting.
Patrick Kothe 12:02
And I imagine that that's different, whether you what position that you hold within a company, who, what experts or what, what bosses are in, in, in the meeting, and and also how confident you are in your material.
Shelly O'Donovan 12:18
Absolutely, and how confident you are in the material sets of basis. Right. So if you're not confident in that material, it's gonna be really hard for you to fake that because you're going to be stumbling, you know, as you roll out a project or whatever your purse if you're presenting especially, but also who's in the room. But I also tell people, I have spoken to some very, very high level, folks within pharma and medical device, who tell me that they take a minute before they walk into a room that they take a deep breath that in the morning, they look into the mirror, and they tell themselves that they've got this. So even at the highest levels, people still have to do this. But it's the folks that aren't doing it at all that that you know, comp, they don't look confident in what they're what they're presenting, they come into a room and they have like 10 million things, and they're rushing. And they're not kind of taking that space to calm down and to really walk in confidently and it does make a difference in your career. I mean, we can debate whether it should or not, but it absolutely does. There's lots of research to suggest it.
Patrick Kothe 13:24
I had somebody tell me years ago, before I was going to go up on stage, do the Superman pose, get up there, spread your legs apart, put your foot your chest out, put your hands on your hips, take a dig deep breath, and just go out there confidently. And it really works. Yeah, I've spoken in front of your 1000s of people before and I've always done that. And it just gives you that little bit of extra self confidence walking out there.
Shelly O'Donovan 13:52
Yeah, absolutely does. And the other thing that I tell folks is if you get a moment where you're kind of by yourself and you can put like, put your headphones on or something like play the song that gets you really amped up. And and that is going to just change your you know, there's lots of research about music in the brain and how it changes things. And that can really make a difference and how how you walk on a stage but also just how you walk into a meeting, even if it's online. Just take that time to kind of get yourself energized.
Patrick Kothe 14:25
So we've talked about some of the things that we can do and focus on ourselves. But in communication, we're playing office, somebody else. So we got other things like empathy and listening and feedback and those types of things. Let's let's discuss that a little bit.
Shelly O'Donovan 14:40
Sure. Absolutely. So it becomes really important. I one of the things that people forget to do is to really listen. And so we can be having a conversation and in the back of my head. I'm thinking Oh, what am I going to say next? What am I going to say next? And and you will feel that right that I'm not quite with you. When you're talking, so if I can sit back and actually listen to what you're saying, not get so worried about what I'm going to say next, that really establishes a better connection between two people. And so that's the first big tip like really listen, listen to what the person saying. And then certainly looking at that empathy piece, like, empathize that like everyone's human. So they, you know, even the biggest boss at your company has had challenges that day, maybe getting to work on the computer, the kinds of things that you do. So finding those things, and connecting with people can be really powerful.
Patrick Kothe 15:40
Also, kind of, once you're listening, there's the next step is understanding you can you can listen to, to what somebody is saying, Listen to the words, but really to understand that and make sure that you understand. So how do we get better at understanding and making sure that what we thought we heard is what the other person is really trying to say?
Shelly O'Donovan 16:01
Yeah, so one, one of the things is reading body language, because if, if you're saying yes to me, but you're shaking your head, no, there's some kind of misalignment there. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you mean, no. But maybe you're you're hesitant about what you're, you know what you've just said yes to. So those, those cues can really be helpful. And I would never call somebody out because they shake their head opposite of what you're looking for. But then asking follow up questions like, oh, that, you know, that budget piece really seems like it's, it doesn't sit well with you, Pat, or something like that, like just teasing it out a little bit more. And always kind of asking the next question and trying to dig a little deeper and find out a little more. That's one place sales folks. Good sales folks are really good at right. They're really good at getting, getting to that next level.
Patrick Kothe 16:55
Some communication training courses asks you to restate the issue or restate, restate the thing, and sometimes that's beneficial. And other times, I've felt like I've being manipulated into communication, and somebody has just gone through a communication training course. And they just go down the checklist of everything I say they go back. Oh, so what you're saying is, so how do we get better at that too, to restate what we're, you know, what we're think we're understanding without, without coming across as insincere. Yeah. And
Shelly O'Donovan 17:26
I, I just I always come back to when you are really insincere, or sincere with something, it really stands out. So if you are really trying to understand what's happening, then even just saying, Hey, I had I'm trying to understand exactly where you're at here. And what I think I'm hearing is this, but I'm not really sure. Like just being really genuine with it. And then you don't always have to restate though even when I teach public speaking, when someone in audience asks you a question, you have to be a little bit careful, especially if you're in politics, because you could ask me a kind of a hot question, and I repeat it, and then that's what's picked up like on the news, right that night, and they're like, Shelley said this, and it's not true. It's just I was repeating or restating your question. So you have to be careful sometimes that you're not like pushed into that by someone.
Patrick Kothe 18:20
And politicians often don't do that. Because they don't want to answer the question anyway. They're gonna deflect it and say something that they want to talk
Shelly O'Donovan 18:27
Exactly.
Patrick Kothe 18:29
So, so what's going on is, is you are presenting a certain thing, and then you're getting information back from the other person. And you're understanding what that is. And now once you've established you got to trust, you've understood what they're saying, Now comes the kind of the persuasive part. So let's dig into a little bit on the persuasion and how you can be a better persuader.
Shelly O'Donovan 18:58
Yeah. So again, I mean, I think it comes down to the the words you use, and also how you communicate them. And that's the piece that often isn't really taught, especially not when we're younger, right? It's not taught in schools. We might, we might learn how to write, but we're or even public speak, but we're not normally taught that body language. So, you know, can you have open communication? Do you look like you're willing to receive communication and once you start to watch other people, you can pick up other cues to like, if somebody crosses their arms, they might not be open to what you've said. And so you're really just looking at how you're going to communicate both verbally and non verbally from your perspective, and then also picking up those cues the whole way. So one example I worked with a company and they had sales folks that went into people's homes, and they were finding that their sales guys were and it was a big expensive pitch, right because it's like a basement remodel. or something. And so they were finding that their their teams were looking down when they went to, they would like state the price. And the the guys were writing stuff down. And then what happened was they were missing all these cues from the customers that the customers were just not happy with the price. And so once they looked up and just sat and really communicated one on one, and and were in that communication, rather than taking notes, they started to notice things and they started to be able to say, Okay, I see that the price is a little high for you. So let's, you know, let's see what we can do what let's see how we can shift that.
Patrick Kothe 20:41
That's really important, because so many times when we're communicating, we're not either either, we don't have good eye contact with the person, because you're looking down and you're looking somewhere else. Or we're looking at the screen when we're presenting as opposed to looking at the people, or we're looking at a product or a promotional piece, and talking somebody through that. And we're missing all of the feedback that we should be getting in order to understand whether they're with us or not.
Shelly O'Donovan 21:14
Absolutely. And so that that becomes really important. And it's hard on the screen, like I will tell you, we shifted to this, like online meeting space. And so if I'm looking at the camera, it looks like I'm looking right at you, you'll feel that but then I can't really see you so so it's so then you are like missing some of that nonverbal feedback when you're not looking at the person. So it's a balance, for sure, when it's when it's in an online setting. But even in person, you know, just making sure to really tune in, you can always feel it when somebody has like, their phone sitting out and they're communicating with you versus when they tuck it in their bag, and sit and communicate. It's totally different feeling right?
Patrick Kothe 21:56
Yeah, I think we've all kind of been there with a spouse or a child, and you've got the game on TV. And you're kind of looking, you know, sneaking glances at the TV, as opposed to putting on pause and turning and looking at that person. It's a different level of communication. When you do that, and it's the same thing in a meeting or, or an online thing. Are you involved? Are you really there? Or are you not? Because the other person, you know, what's the other person feeling at that point?
Shelly O'Donovan 22:26
Yeah, absolutely. I had a boss once that he would come into her office, and instead of staying like behind her desk, she would come out and she pull a chair up and sit next to you across from you. And wow, like, that's just it's a little thing. But it makes you feel so much different than when you're having that conversation.
Patrick Kothe 22:45
So kind of, as we said, shall we there's, there's, these are skills that we can, we can develop, we're not, you know, we're not born with them, you've got a certain level, and then we build on those skills. So let's, let's talk a little bit more about some specific things within different areas. So let's, let's, let's talk about listening and active listening. And really dig into a couple of things that we can do to be better active listeners.
Shelly O'Donovan 23:12
Yeah, so the first thing is just to stop yourself when your mind kind of starts to wander or or ask a question. So if if you find the person across from you is not engaging enough, or something that's your your mind is wandering, then ask them a question, because that's going to put it back to them again, and ask them something that you think you'd be interested to hear. And they might be interested to tell you. So that's one thing. Also, just the nonverbal feedback that you get from someone else can be really incredible in building, you know, so there's not like you're sitting here nodding your head, when I'm saying things like that's helping me, right, that's helping me communicate better. And so when you see somebody across, across the way like that, it makes it so much easier. I tell folks that go to speak that you can always find somebody in the audience who's willing to do that for you, you don't even have to ask them, you will find somebody there shaking their head, looking you in the eye raising their eyebrows once in a while to show that they're really engaged in what you're saying.
Patrick Kothe 24:14
And you also have to understand the culture of the of the person too, because in the US, yes, shaking your head and saying yes, yes. Yes. That's, that's, that's recognizes there with you. But in other cultures, it you know, shaking your head and saying yes, may mean, I hear you not necessarily I agree with you, but I hear what you're saying. So you have to understand who you're talking to as well.
Shelly O'Donovan 24:38
Yeah. And that that is so true. And even if you can't like so if we were in a really intense meeting, and I had to take notes, but I was really wanting to hear what you were gonna say, I might just even call that out to you and say, Hey, Pat, just so you know, I'm gonna take notes. It's not that I'm not listening, but um, I just I need to get notes on this topic. And so those kind of things to become helpful. And like you said, knowing exactly what that other person. So are there cultural differences? You know, some cultures don't like eye contact. And so sometimes you might see that as well and and realize that that's more of a cultural difference.
Patrick Kothe 25:16
I think what you know what you just said, I've used that as well, especially in this medium that we've got right now with your zoom calls and everything. Because when you're not looking at the camera, you're looking down, and they can't necessarily see what you're doing when you're looking down. So whether you're taking notes or whether you're scrolling on your phone, they don't know. Yeah, so asking permission or telling them hey, you know, I, I'm going to be taking a couple notes here. So please don't be offended that I'm not looking at you. Make a little joke. Yeah, but but make sure that they understand what you're doing. Because when it's off camera, it's up to their interpretation.
Shelly O'Donovan 25:54
Yeah, absolutely. Although I even tell people if you do if you are taking notes, like just make sure your pen comes up into the screen so people can see that. Okay, I do have a pen like I'm not on my phone.
Patrick Kothe 26:07
Good. Good point. So anything else on the listening side? That is there's some skills that we can we can really get better at?
Shelly O'Donovan 26:15
Yeah, so from a nonverbal perspective, one thing that you can do, so there's the slow nod. So 123, they've shown that folks will talk three to four times longer, when you do that slow, nod, fast nod three times is like Hurry up, I want to get done with this. So be careful about that as well. The other thing is, if you tilt your head, that's a sign of empathy. And so if I was communicating tough news to you, right, now, I might tilt my head a bit to communicate that and you're gonna feel like, okay, like, she understands like, she's, she's got, you know, she's got it. She's empathetic to this.
Patrick Kothe 26:53
When you're talking with different people and going through these things, you're looking out at the audience, and people are mirroring what you're saying, is that, right?
Shelly O'Donovan 27:00
Definitely, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny. Sometimes I give a tip on sales, that Not always, but sometimes when somebody licks their lips, it means they want the other thing. And usually, if you're in a sales conversation, it means they're kind of ready, ready to buy. But every time I say that, everybody likes their lips.
Patrick Kothe 27:22
So we have, we've been talking a lot about nonverbal. And that's one of the one of your areas of expertise. So let's really dig into into the nonverbal a little bit more, because we've done it from from a listening standpoint, but just overall nonverbal. And I know that we're in a we're an audio medium, so it's kind of hard to do all of this. And this is also a subject that you can't master with one podcast. I mean, there's, there's a lot in here. So let's just kind of give a general explanation on nonverbal in and some tips that people can can do.
Shelly O'Donovan 27:57
Yeah, so when I talk nonverbal, I mean, the gestures that you make, also some, there are some nonverbal things that can send a message. So like the dress I have on the earrings, the glasses, and some things that you can't control for, like your age, or different things like that, that all sends a nonverbal picture. And then the other piece is voice tone. And so voice tone is really important as well. And so that is that is another piece of nonverbal communication.
Patrick Kothe 28:29
So if you, your objective is to be a good communicator, and a persuasive communicator, what type of voice tone should you take?
Shelly O'Donovan 28:40
So, actually, there's some research around this, that folks that have a lower register of voice tone are seen as more trustworthy, and more calm, really? Yeah, really. So I, what I tell people to do is play with your voice tone, you don't want to be you know, you don't want to be totally out of wherever your normal range is. But you want to be kind of on the lower register side. And I have a great example for this. I take my kids to a doctor and I went in one day, and there was a nurse there that had a super high pitched voice tone. And I could just see my kids were just like kind of confused a little bit. And it was just, you know, her normal, normal voice. And so it really affected though how they were like receiving her and I could actually see a little bit of just confusion from their, their eyes.
Patrick Kothe 29:38
What's interesting about this, my impression is that my voice gets higher, the more excited I get. And that's actually going against what you're saying, if I'm exciting. I'm trying to be very persuasive in my communication. I'm working against myself by being excited.
Shelly O'Donovan 29:56
So a little bit, but you are also having a A lot of vocal variation, so you're going up and down. And that's the other piece like if, you know, if you just have this monotone voice that's deep, like that's gonna lose people, right? Because we have to have those ups and downs. And so that becomes important as well. So your base might be a little bit on the lower side, but then having those peaks and valleys becomes important for keeping people excited.
Patrick Kothe 30:26
So just working on varying your pitch throughout conversation.
Shelly O'Donovan 30:31
Yes, yes, and I and here's the other thing with all of this stuff, like, don't go into the biggest board meeting that you have, and practice it like, that is not the place to try it. Like, eventually, you can get there but like, you know, do it when you're like on a call with I don't know, your best friend at work, and it doesn't really matter, you know, or tape yourself in a meeting and just see what you do. Because I've also found lots of clients don't even realize they're doing things. And then once they see it, they're like, Oh, I do do that. And then then it fixes it.
Patrick Kothe 31:07
So to establish trust, we're talking about earlier, what are some nonverbal things that we can do to establish trust?
Shelly O'Donovan 31:14
Yeah, so again, open, like open body language, don't cross your arms, like we're taught to put our hands on our laps like when we eat. That's not great for establishing trust. So you want to be able to show your hands. And the reason is that, you know, back in caveman days, when we saw somebody walking down the dirt path, we wanted to know whether they had a weapon in their hand. And so we're not really looking for weapons anymore in today's age, but we are subconsciously trying to figure out if we're going to be friend or foe. And so that's what we're looking for, like, subconsciously, we need to see those hands to know that we can trust each other. So that is one thing that is really important. The other thing is sitting if you're in person with someone sitting face to face across from them, so kind of straight head on. There's research that suggests that we feel that people are more trustworthy and open when they sit across from us. So even if you're on LinkedIn, please do not have a picture where you're like turned like you want to be head on in that picture, because people will not trust you. And they're going to immediately be like, Oh, that's weird. Like, they may not know why they think that but but that's the reason.
Patrick Kothe 32:26
So your profile picture on LinkedIn or or zoom? It should be a straight on headshot and
Shelly O'Donovan 32:33
straight on headshot. Absolutely.
Patrick Kothe 32:36
So when you're going into a meeting, how do you enter the room? what's the what's the best way to establish trust as you're walking in?
Shelly O'Donovan 32:44
Yeah. So if you're walking into a meeting, one big thing I would say is, just be careful that you don't have like a million things like we all know this, people are coming from other meetings. And they got like the device in one hand and a notebook and another in a bags hanging out. And they just look kind of chaotic. So when you look that way, people think you're that way. So you want to kind of tie that all together. Even if you have a bag and everything's in it, that's great, because it's one thing, and then you walk in confidently know where you're going to sit and kind of sit down. Don't be sitting there on your device at the beginning. Because that is the best time for building rapport with people at the beginning of the meeting before things start, you know, ask people how their weekend when or build that rapport. And then the other thing I would say is try to speak within the first few minutes of the meeting. If you can get some kind of point out there ask a question. Questions are really interesting, because people get scared asking questions. But you can go online and Google good questions to ask at meetings and come up with a million questions to just stick in your back pocket so that you have something good to ask. And people really appreciate those questions as well.
Patrick Kothe 33:55
We're in a we're in a very casual phase right now used to be everyone to walk around in suits and, and skirts. And there. We don't have that anymore, right. How is that affecting persuasiveness, because we've got, you know, within a company, you've got hierarchy. And when you're dealing in the medical device space, you're talking with different customers and physicians and things who may be in scrubs and you're not or right. So, so how, how is dress right now affecting the ability to be persuasive? Yeah,
Shelly O'Donovan 34:29
so I do think that you always want to address and what's appropriate, so whatever that is for your company, and I would, I would venture to take it up a little bit of a notch. What I find though is some folks are you know, they're showing up to meetings and their sweat pants and stuff and, and that might be okay on a team, but it does send a certain message and you want to make sure that you're conveying that you've got it all together that you're and let's face it like this Where that we're in on zoom is not that big, it's not that hard to manage, like you could throw on makeup, pull up your hair, throw on a clean shirt and not even have to shower and still look presentable. So that is one thing, and then just lighting becomes so important. And I can't stress this enough. If I had turned my lights off today, I would look awful. And I would look like I just woke up, even though that's not the case. So even if you just have good lights, and you can take like lights from around your house, it doesn't have to be anything fancy, you just take some lights, and put them behind your camera, and that's going to front light your face. And it's going to make you look a million times more engaged as well.
Patrick Kothe 35:42
People are looking at you and they're getting an impression of you, and you're looking at them and gaining an impression of them. What can we learn from other people's body language? and help us to feed that into our communication?
Shelly O'Donovan 35:54
Yeah, so I, I think that's a great question. Because so often we, we do certain things too, like we all do. I mean, I've been trained extensively in body language, and I still have things slip out from time to time, in my body language as well. And so when we see it on other people, sometimes we notice that and then it makes it easier for us to change those things in ourselves. And it's not that you're judging those other people for their body language, because it happens to all of us. I mean, you know, I say not to close off your body language, but you just have to go to a funeral and everyone's closed off, right, because you're feeling that way, and you feel those emotions and all of your body. So it's gonna leak out that body language. So that that's the big thing, just when you see it on other people. And you can also try it and just have fun with it, you know, go to the coffee shop and go in one day, order a cup of coffee and smile bigger than you normally would or make eye contact with others in a different way than you normally would and just see what happens, like see what you get back from someone if you get more engagement back from them.
Patrick Kothe 37:02
So surely, let's go to a couple of different scenarios or and talk about different different ways of being persuasive in there. So let's we touched on it earlier, but first impressions. So if you're walking in, you haven't met anyone you know, the old the old adage, you know, you're young, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. So what is the best way to go in and immediately establish trust, and, and they know that you've got a personality?
Shelly O'Donovan 37:30
Yeah, so just walk in confidently try to have your posture engaged, and your hands open, as well. So not quite closed off. If it's a networking event, like you might look for somebody who looks approachable. So if there's two people facing each other, and their feet are completely facing each other, that may mean they're having like an intense conversation. And so you might get some pushback if you try to get into that conversation. But if you see two people on their feet are kind of a little bit more open and outward, then that means that they're accepting of other other folks into that conversation. So that might be where you kind of beeline for. And then, you know, a great opening line is Hello, I'm Shelly. And that that works. So just being brave and making that that first introduction.
Patrick Kothe 38:23
And I think the way that you just delivered that to you deliver it was with a smile, and a little bit of a laugh and a little You're so so just, it's the attitude that you're bringing in not the words that you're bringing into. Yeah, absolutely. So we've got got a first impression. Now let's talk about a one on one meeting, somebody that you already know, that that you're you're talking with. And it's this persuasive situation. So you've got to, you've got an idea, and you're trying to sell that idea to that other to the other person. What are some couple of things that we can do to be more persuasive in a one on one situation?
Shelly O'Donovan 39:04
Yeah, so it's a lot of similar stuff. But really, it's about building that trust, first of all, making sure they know why you're there, right? Not trying to like hide the fact that you're trying to persuade them of something, so and then having that evidence layered in as well. Giving them everything that they need, but also listening to them, right asking lots of questions, finding out what problems are that they may be having, or how this whatever you're pitching is going to affect them. But really, you know, kind of letting them take on some of that and lead some of that conversation as well. And looking for those cues as you're in those conversations. So if you pitch whatever it is that you're trying to sell, and you close your arms off, or they close their arms off that and that may mean that they're not so interested and so thinking about Okay, like how can I reframe this or maybe this isn't the right time giving them an opportunity to think about things as well, that becomes really helpful in building that trust.
Patrick Kothe 40:05
So he talked about delivering evidence in a in a good way, let's dig into that a little bit more. Stories are generally a good thing. But sometimes sometimes we've got good stories. Sometimes we don't. But what are the best ways to make sure that you're delivering your message so that someone can really absorb it understand, get a little emotion out of it, in order to be more persuasive?
Shelly O'Donovan 40:32
Yeah. So I think the one thing is establishing credibility to start with. And so if you're working in a company, you might already have that, but I find a lot of folks go into meetings with lots of people, and they don't communicate why they're able to give feedback on something. So they won't say like, well as the head of HR I feel strongly about. And they lose half the crowd, because they don't really know that that person is the head of HR. And so, you know, making sure that that that credibility is established, and then bringing on some evidence that says, you know, in this report of making sure that evidence is credible to so at the height of the pandemic, my Jim was putting out this email and they said, Hey, we, we found this study that things are safe, when you open up the study, like you followed it, it was like from the Association of gyms. So, so I felt like well, I would have felt a little more comfortable was like the CDC, but you know, so making sure that where your source is credible, and then putting that forward as well,
Patrick Kothe 41:39
leaning in leaning back, what's what, what, what are your thoughts there?
Shelly O'Donovan 41:43
Yeah, so leaning in, is a sign of engagement. Typically, we do have different spaces. So within very close within, I think it's about 15 inches or so is your personal space. And so the only time you'd really go into someone's personal space, and a business context is if you're shaking a hand, if we still do that after COVID, I don't know, that's really the only time you're going to go into somebody's personal space. And if you're in that personal space, people are going to step back, they don't typically like that, like so that's, that's one, one place, but leaning into that to show that you're engaged in the conversation is a great sign, as well.
Patrick Kothe 42:26
So let's go into into the meeting. So you've got, you know, 10 people that are that are in a meeting, yeah, you walk into the room. And as you said, you know, you shouldn't you shouldn't have a whole bunch of things that you're carrying, and you're walking in confidently to that, where do you Where do you sit?
Shelly O'Donovan 42:44
Yeah, so that depends a little bit on who you are, and, and who you're trying to, sometimes avoid or not avoid. So if you're the boss, and you're heading, the meeting, definitely set at the head of the table. If you're I often work with folks that are having a hard time kind of bringing in their confidence, they've just been raised into a position and they're bringing their confidence. And I tell them, you have to, even if you have to move somebody who's at the head of the table, just move them. So that's one way to do it. If you walk into a meeting and you you know, you have a boss that really kind of goes after you a lot in a meeting, don't sit across from them sit next to them, like so you're shoulder to shoulder because that shows that you're in alignment with them. And it also puts you out of that kind of direct line of fire. And so that can sometimes calm things down a little bit. If you want to be noticed by the boss, though sit across from them, so that you're really in that line of sight as well.
Patrick Kothe 43:47
So we've all kind of been in been at a meeting where it's dominated by a couple of people, and we're a wallflower on there, but we've got ideas that are doing. So how do you how do you prevent that from happening? Yeah, how do you get you get yourself noticed within that meeting and your ideas? noticed? And you're able to persuade people? Yeah, so
Shelly O'Donovan 44:08
there's a lot of, there's a lot that you can do. So the first thing I talked about earlier was like within the first five minutes saying something, because that's going to make you feel better to communicate later in the meeting. Again, questions are great. You also want to make sure what you're communicating is packaged well. So we see that a lot of times, you know, I'll say something and then you go and you kind of steal it, but you but you may have stolen the idea, but you repackage it a little nicer. So people listen to what you say because you repackaged what I said, right. And so you want to make sure that you're packaging things from the get go that sound that sound concise to the point. The other thing is just really going into a meeting with intent. So it may be that you have intent to move your project forward or something directly related to that meeting, but it may be that you have intent today that like, I want to say, three things, or that I want to communicate this particular message or that I want my boss to see me as a valued member of the team. And then thinking about how you can do it, you know, being prepared going into that meeting, knowing knowing what's on the agenda, knowing what you can say, having just some, some bullet points somewhere on a little piece of paper that you can pull out if you need to,
Patrick Kothe 45:27
going in there with intent and intent to understand an intent. If you have that persuasive intent. We know what what exactly that is, is there anything that we can learn when we walk into a meeting? And we may not be? It may be a meeting that we don't know a lot of the people in there, and you're just walking in? What can we learn from the people that are sitting in the room?
Shelly O'Donovan 45:48
Yeah, so you can learn so much, so much happens there's, so even if you and I just had a one on one meeting and 30 minutes 800 nonverbal signals would be released between us, which is like this whole other subconscious conversation that we basically have. And so when you walk into a meeting, all of those signals are being released. And so you can see, by the way, people's feet are pointed, who is kind of the most important person or the leader in the room, sometimes that's not the person you think it should be. Because if we point our feet, we tend to point our feet to the most important person in the room, you might see folks in what we call the runner stance, so it looks as if they're about to run out, but they're sitting, that's like I want to get out of here I've had enough. So we point our feet to like what we want as well. You also might see people like closed off body language, and they're just, you know, they're done. Like, they don't want to be in that meeting. So you can totally see that as well, or folks that are checked out on their phones. And, you know, not necessarily busy, but just like having a little me time, because they don't want to engage with the folks around them. So those kinds of things become really interesting spot,
Patrick Kothe 47:03
we're talking a little bit about moving the arms and doing things like that some people you know, you look at them, and it's like, they just went to a course and they got out, you know, like a windmill arms. Kind of cool. So, so let's see kind of the appropriate amount of movement. Yeah, so
Shelly O'Donovan 47:18
I so first of all, I tell people think about like you're carrying a box, like almost like an Amazon box and keep your hands in that. So kind of waist above. And, you know, you want to gesture specifically if you can. So it might be as you're trying to say something, but it might be that you're talking about a global, you know, a global market. So you put your hands together and make like the shape of a ball, right. And that helps people to get their, their brains around what that looks like. So that's one thing, but there's, you know, you want to use your hands. I don't know about 60% of the time, so it's not the whole time, and then just rest them. If you're at any meeting, you would kind of rest them on the table itself. So
Patrick Kothe 48:05
so make sure that your hands are visible, because if you put your hands underneath, it's a sign of closing off and hiding as well. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And and as far as also gesturing some people just are doing putting their arms up and doing the same thing with both arms, as opposed to, you know, one having one one hand independent of the other. Is there anything there?
Shelly O'Donovan 48:28
Yeah, not not necessarily, it kind of comes down to personal preference. Like certainly, if you were in a meeting and talking about, you know, how rates of disease increased or something that might just be one, like one finger to show like that line on a graph. So anything you can do to kind of show a visual with your hands is really important.
Patrick Kothe 48:51
So let's switch it a little bit. So you're in a meeting, but instead of being somebody around the table, now you're you're up presenting, and you're standing up doing doing a presentation? What are some a few things that you can do to be more persuasive when you're standing up giving that presentation?
Shelly O'Donovan 49:10
Yeah, so one thing I would say is if you have room to move, you could move but just make it very, very specific. So you don't want to just be like be lining back and forth. But as you make this particular statement, you might have some movement during that statement, and then stop and hold somebody's eye while you've finished delivering that statement. And then you can go and move to the next thing. The other thing is depending upon how big the crowd is that you're presenting to, you might have to have bigger gestures. So I know I say that like keep them in the box. But if you're presenting and there's folks, you know, way back in the room, then you might have to have big gestures just so people see you. Because you want to be like you want to be able to take the stage Be confident, and certainly, you know, anything you can do to build that confidence before you walk. on that stage, whether it's listening to music or doing that Superman pose, that becomes really important too.
Patrick Kothe 50:07
And as far as where you're focused? are you focusing in on one person in the room? Are you doing, you know, the four corners of the room? How do you make sure that you're engaging with the audience? Yeah. So
Shelly O'Donovan 50:22
I would definitely try to make to actually make eye contact with folks and hold it for a few minutes, and then go to the next person. And so you can try to work your way around the room in terms of your eye contact, the one place that this really becomes difficult is if you're on a stage, and there's lights, because you won't be able to see anybody. And so in that, in that case, you have to kind of pretend that you see people, and that, you know, that works as well. But really looking at a large group of people, and there will be someone smiling and looking back at you in the audience, you will definitely find a friendly face out there if you just look for it. And that that does a lot to take down your nerves.
Patrick Kothe 51:06
So we talked about online and online, it's got its got its its challenges right now. So you, you spoke about, you know, the lighting and the background and, and, and different things. What are some other things that we can do that to really stay engaged? So let's say that you're on a on a zoom call, and you've got 20 people that are on the call. Some people are muting themselves, some people are turning their camera off, some people are looking different things, how can you be the best person in that meeting to be the most persuasive person?
Shelly O'Donovan 51:45
Yeah, so the one thing I would say is keep the camera on, because it's so important for someone to actually see that you're engaged and in the room, because if you are the one or many people with the camera off, like people forget, you're even there, like, it doesn't matter that your name is on the screen, like they're thinking you're out like, you know, doing something else, and that you're not even sitting there. So that's the biggest thing, which is easy to do. The other thing is just actually paying attention and being engaged in the meeting. And I know that that sounds easy, but I also know how hard it is sometimes in these longer meetings to be engaged. And so you know, some other things you can do is just to look around the room and see who else is engaged. See, if you can get any other tips to you can actually learn a lot in terms of body language, who's who's interested in the meeting, who's not. You can also if it's possible, you might ask the facilitator if they need help, during the meeting, do they want you to, you know, take the chat questions and and that's a great way to be engaged. And it gives you loads of visibility on as well.
Patrick Kothe 52:54
turning the camera off is kind of like walking out of a room in a meeting. And, and one of the my pet peeves too, is a person that turns it on and off and on and off and on and off and on and off. And it's just like somebody would be walking in and out of a room that you did have a meeting. It's very disrespectful to everyone else. That's it that's sitting sitting there. And I think the other thing is, you know, you mentioned it to is, Where are you looking? Are you looking at the screen? Are you looking at the camera. And that's a really hard thing that we've got to do right now. And I know I've got a setup where I've got a teleprompter where I can look directly into the camera to do it. But it's not convenient to do that with every meeting. Some of them you've got your computer on, you're looking at at the at the screen, and you know that you're not looking at it. But when I see other people and I'm trying to make a point, and I see that they're not looking at me, it affects me. Yeah. So I think just being cognizant of what you're doing, and that online, online setting where your eyes are.
Shelly O'Donovan 53:55
Yeah, absolutely. And it is hard because the camera isn't. And I actually had a student at Wharton last semester who had a camera like in a weird place on his laptop. So it was like on the bottom. So it always looked like he was looking down, which was weird. So you have to kind of play with it and see what works for you and know that other people are, are looking like at you. Even though they might not be looking at it, if it doesn't feel like they're looking at you. So it's a balance between looking at the camera at definitely if you're if you're presenting you want to try to look at that camera as much as you can. Because that's going to make the person feel like you're looking right at them.
Patrick Kothe 54:35
What's interesting is we've been on this for for a while now. We've been dealing with this and this isn't a new subject. People have been talking about this for a long time. But it's still happens every meeting that I'm on. It's I've got some bad actors so please check yourself and make sure that you're not one of those one of those bad actors. Well that this has really been interesting, interesting discussion, Shelly but there's something in your bag background that I wanted to wanted to get to to you were a vaccine advocate for GSK GlaxoSmithKline. And in today's environment, sure you've got got some thoughts. So let's dig into a little bit about vaccines and being a vaccine advocate and what your thoughts are today.
Shelly O'Donovan 55:20
Yeah, so I worked for GSK. for 10 years, a lot of that time was in the vaccine space of doing public policy work for them, working with our advocacy groups, and trying to open up channels to get vaccine vaccines covered from a reimbursement perspective, but then also just open up the about availability. And so I think that vaccines are one of the greatest advancements in medicine, I mean, it keeps us safe, it keeps us able to do what we are able to do. And when I worked for GSK, it's funny, because we used to talk all the time about how, you know, the success of vaccines was really why there was this ability for kind of folks on the other side of it to come in because because they were healthy because they had had vaccines, because we had eradicated certain diseases like polio, and most generations hadn't seen that before. And so it's interesting that we're sitting here, now in kind of another pandemic, and we're seeing that value of vaccines really come forward. Again,
Patrick Kothe 56:23
we're in the medical device space. We deal with hospitals, I just saw us hospital, a group this week said, if you're coming into our hospital, you need to be vaccinated. And it's no different, you know, people with hepatitis vaccines or any other vaccines, this is this is another vaccine. That is people are requesting you do it. So it's been proven that vaccines eradicate diseases, which sure would like to eradicate this this disease to so please get your vaccine. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, let's just talk a little bit about authentic influence, group your combat. So what do you guys do? What What is? What's your mission? And how do you help medical device companies?
Shelly O'Donovan 57:11
Yeah, so we primarily work with medical device and with pharma. And our goal is to help folks to kind of grab hold of their influence at work. And this comes from my background working in politics and watching influence the whole time along. So we go and retrain. And a lot of companies, we do one off trainings, and we also do some pilot projects. So I'm working with a medical device company right now. And we're doing a kind of long term pilot project with them, working with small groups of employees and trying to help them manage their influence in meetings, be able to kind of push back on other folks in meetings and just take hold of their career and really move to the next level. And so, and then, I also teach at Wharton. So I have lots of fun teaching the presentation skills as well, and that persuasion and pitching and so we do all those things in my company, we train we coach, we work with folks. And we get involved in a lot of fun stuff, actually.
Patrick Kothe 58:14
So what are a couple of the main things, main issues that you're that you see, when you come into a company? What are some of the things that people are really not doing correctly, that they need some retraining
Shelly O'Donovan 58:28
on? Yeah, I think it's interesting. So sometimes, it's just that they get so kind of stuck in where they are that they don't realize that they almost feel like, I'm not moving. And it has everything to do with everyone around me. And they don't realize that they're small tweaks that they can make, to start moving themselves again. And so sometimes that's you know, the being a little more positive in your communication, it's making sure your body language is there, honing your confidence, you know, having that executive presence, all those things contribute to whether you move up that ladder or not. And then also just knowing personality. The other thing we didn't talk about today, but my company does is we look at personality and the Big Five, which is very easy for everybody to kind of get their head around. But it's once you know what personalities on your team, you know, how to give them what they need, and you know how to kind of interpret that from your own personality as well. So, you know, for example, if I know that you are very conscientious, and I'm not, I but I need to work for you, I need to make sure that I have a way that I can kind of home that in some way that I give you all the you know the bells and whistles that you need. Otherwise, you're going to feel like I'm not doing my job. And it's just that we probably have a little bit of a mismatch in personality if that's the case. So just putting those things in place and helping yourself and that's going to help propel you and move you
Patrick Kothe 1:00:00
Well, Shelley, thank you so much. And we'll and we'll have Shelley's company in the show notes. If you want to get in get in contact with her, you'll be able to do that. Shelley, are there any messages? Or is any message that you'd like to leave with the listeners today?
Shelly O'Donovan 1:00:15
Yeah, I mean, the biggest message I would say is take control of your first impression, your personality, your body language, but don't be intimidated by it either. Just make little tweaks and practice things like when you go for a cup of coffee, or when you're with your family, when it's like a low stakes moment, and it's going to help you move up that ladder.
Patrick Kothe 1:00:38
This was really a valuable conversation. And Shelly reminded us of things that we may have already known, and may have forgotten, but needed to be reminded of again, and I'm sure there were some new things that that you took out of it, I know that I did. There's several things that that I took out of it as well, a few of my takeaways. First of all, we spent a lot of time on trust. And the reason why we spent so much time on it, it's really is the bedrock of all good communication. And when we think about it, if you don't have trust, persuasion is never going to happen. So there was so many good things and tips that she talked about within there to build trust. So please, you know, go back and listen to those again, if you if you need to. The second thing that stood out to me was confidence. And it's not only confidence that you need to have in order to be up and presenting in such a way that it's, that's impactful. But people are going to see that. And it's not only you, but it's confidence in your idea. So you it's not just you know, you're not gonna you're not gonna persuade anybody, just by your great personality, your confidence, you also have to present it in such a way and with confidence that it's going to be impactful for the other person as well. The last thing is baby steps. She cautioned us from making big changes in our communication style at a board meeting. But they're certainly low stakes areas that we can take in practice some of these things. And the other thing is we've got an opportunity right now with all of these zoom meetings that we're going through, you can record them very easily on your computer and really get a good baseline of the things that you do need to improve, especially in this meeting. Thank you for listening. Make sure you get episodes downloaded to your device automatically by liking or subscribing to the mastering medical device, podcast and Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Also, please spread the word and tell a friend or two to listen to the mastering medical device podcast as interviews like today's can help you become a more effective medical device leader. Work hard. Be kind
